From a panel at the Toronto Fan Expo:
"The problem with Legion of Superheroes is the big cast?" Really? One might ask, then, why DiDio was so enthusiastic about Legion Of 3 Worlds, which not only shoehorned in every tangential member of that cast, but tripled it by bringing in two alternate universe versions. If it wasn't a problem in LO3W, why would the "large cast" be a barrier to a new, continuing series?
And of course, the "big cast" is really no more a problem for the Legion than it is, say, for the Justice League or Society. There's no rule that says you have to use everybody at once. You pick and choose who your team is for that story, or that arc. Very few Legion stories have ever crammed in every member, and few in the future would have to. Just because you have a kitchen sink doesn't mean you're going to throw it in there every issue.
Most obviously, though, one of the very reasons for the Legion's popularity IS the big cast. You have literally a huge legion of heroes to choose from, and the fans love it. The times of the Legion's greatest popularity have coincided with when their cast was the largest.
Problem? The "large cast" isn't a problem, Dan, it's an opportunity.
And if too large a cast is a problem, one might finally ask why DC is busy trying to incorporate the large casts of Milestone (oops--never mind!), Red Circle and T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents into their universe.
Secondly, Didio's "biggest personal problem was the lack of Superboy and the inspiration for the team."
Again, this shows a lack of knowledge of the Legion. From 1980 onwards, Superboy was not a regular member of the team. He'd show up for special ocassions, but the title changed from Superboy And The Legion Of Super-Heroes to just The Legion Of Superheroes in January of 1980.
Yet, despite that lack of Superboy, the Legion from that point onwards was popular enough to be able to support two separate title simultaneously--twice. The Legion of the 1980s and 90s was very popular, and reached creative and sales heights it hadn't when young Kal-El was attached.
Yes, some foolish DC editorial moves retconned Superboy out of the Legion's past--2 or 3 times, actually. I won't rehash that here. But to say that "we don't want to publish a Legion title because we screwed up Superboy" is the same thing as saying "we're going to punish you fans because we did something stupid 20 years ago." Thanks, Dan.
"...without Superboy to inspire the team, it lost its own purpose and just became a team?" Come on, Dan, are you serious? Do the JLA or the Outsiders spend every issue worrying about their "inspiration" or "their purpose?" (Except, of course, for Justice League: Cry for Boredom). For 2 decades the Legion did just fine by being inspired by "corrupted legends" about a Superboy, or by Mon-El, or whomever...and it worked just fine. Unless you're going to have them genuflecting "this is for you, Superboy" every issue, I don't see how this is any different than how you treat the Titans or the JLA. And i can't see why it would take more than one issue to re-establish their inspiration, if you think it's that important.
"It was something set in the future, but it didn’t have a real tether to what was going on in the DC Universe currently." That's not just wrong, it's just plain ignorant of DC history.
Without Superboy as a regular, the Legion fought off Darkseid and Ra's Al Ghul. They participated in several line-wide events, such as Legends, Millennium, Zero Hour and Countdown. They had at least 3 members who had mini-series set in the 20th century. Hell, for a couple of years they had half the team actually stuck in the 20th century. They were linked (albeit somewhat tenuously at times) with the L.E.G.I.O.N. and R.E.B.E.L.S. titles. They've had modern Superboy and Supergirl as members. They're constantly time-travelling into the 21st century these days, partying with Superman and the JLA and the JSA. They hung out with Batman in Brave & Bold. They were responsible for resurrecting both Kid Flash and Connor Kent Superboy. Mon-El is the star of the Superman comic book these days.
Don't have a real tether to what was going on in the DC Universe currently? Dan, what the frak are you talking about?!? If you're paying attention, the Legion has been "tethered" more strongly to the DC Universe than half of your 20th century DC books.
Finally,Dan, to get to the dreaded bottom line, if these are problems, why is DC printing trades from these non-Superboy eras, and fans demanding more? I know, I know, you'll whip out your standard "that's a different division of DC" line, like you always do. But the fact remains--someone at DC sees the sales potential of the Legion despite "large casts" and "untetheredness", while you just opine about the "problems".
Dan, the Legion is more popular and better than you think it is. If you're really this ignorant about the history and potential of one of your oldest super teams, you're doing a poor job as Editor. If not, and you're just ladling BS to cover the real reason ("we're waiting for Geoff Johns to be ready"), then be honest with us.
But instead of a thriving, vital Legion, what we have now is what almost precisely fits the vision DiDio described: a back-up feature with just a couple of characters appearing at a time, wandering around the 21st century. Yawn.
"What we are trying to do ...is rebuild a Legion that is a strong powerful set of characters in the DC U again." You know, that sounds exactly how you enthusiastically described the Milestone characters in July of 2008. Do you see why I'm concerned, Dan??
When the floor opened up to other topics, someone inquired whether there were plans to expand on the Legion of Superheroes?Now, of course Dan DiDio is entitled to his own opinion. But this statement shows that he pretty much doesn't understand the Legion's history, its success, and why fans love the Legion.
“The problem with Legion of Superheroes is the big cast and my biggest personal problem was the lack of Superboy and the inspiration for the team,” offers DiDio. “That was so key to the origin and so key to so much going on there that without that, without Superboy to inspire the team, it lost its own purpose and just became a team. It was something set in the future, but it didn’t have a real tether to what was going on in the DC Universe currently. What we are trying to do is rebuild that time, rebuild that sensibility, and hopefully rebuild a Legion that is a strong powerful set of characters in the DC U again.”
"The problem with Legion of Superheroes is the big cast?" Really? One might ask, then, why DiDio was so enthusiastic about Legion Of 3 Worlds, which not only shoehorned in every tangential member of that cast, but tripled it by bringing in two alternate universe versions. If it wasn't a problem in LO3W, why would the "large cast" be a barrier to a new, continuing series?
And of course, the "big cast" is really no more a problem for the Legion than it is, say, for the Justice League or Society. There's no rule that says you have to use everybody at once. You pick and choose who your team is for that story, or that arc. Very few Legion stories have ever crammed in every member, and few in the future would have to. Just because you have a kitchen sink doesn't mean you're going to throw it in there every issue.
Most obviously, though, one of the very reasons for the Legion's popularity IS the big cast. You have literally a huge legion of heroes to choose from, and the fans love it. The times of the Legion's greatest popularity have coincided with when their cast was the largest.
Problem? The "large cast" isn't a problem, Dan, it's an opportunity.
And if too large a cast is a problem, one might finally ask why DC is busy trying to incorporate the large casts of Milestone (oops--never mind!), Red Circle and T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents into their universe.
Secondly, Didio's "biggest personal problem was the lack of Superboy and the inspiration for the team."
Again, this shows a lack of knowledge of the Legion. From 1980 onwards, Superboy was not a regular member of the team. He'd show up for special ocassions, but the title changed from Superboy And The Legion Of Super-Heroes to just The Legion Of Superheroes in January of 1980.Yet, despite that lack of Superboy, the Legion from that point onwards was popular enough to be able to support two separate title simultaneously--twice. The Legion of the 1980s and 90s was very popular, and reached creative and sales heights it hadn't when young Kal-El was attached.
Yes, some foolish DC editorial moves retconned Superboy out of the Legion's past--2 or 3 times, actually. I won't rehash that here. But to say that "we don't want to publish a Legion title because we screwed up Superboy" is the same thing as saying "we're going to punish you fans because we did something stupid 20 years ago." Thanks, Dan.
"...without Superboy to inspire the team, it lost its own purpose and just became a team?" Come on, Dan, are you serious? Do the JLA or the Outsiders spend every issue worrying about their "inspiration" or "their purpose?" (Except, of course, for Justice League: Cry for Boredom). For 2 decades the Legion did just fine by being inspired by "corrupted legends" about a Superboy, or by Mon-El, or whomever...and it worked just fine. Unless you're going to have them genuflecting "this is for you, Superboy" every issue, I don't see how this is any different than how you treat the Titans or the JLA. And i can't see why it would take more than one issue to re-establish their inspiration, if you think it's that important.
"It was something set in the future, but it didn’t have a real tether to what was going on in the DC Universe currently." That's not just wrong, it's just plain ignorant of DC history.
Without Superboy as a regular, the Legion fought off Darkseid and Ra's Al Ghul. They participated in several line-wide events, such as Legends, Millennium, Zero Hour and Countdown. They had at least 3 members who had mini-series set in the 20th century. Hell, for a couple of years they had half the team actually stuck in the 20th century. They were linked (albeit somewhat tenuously at times) with the L.E.G.I.O.N. and R.E.B.E.L.S. titles. They've had modern Superboy and Supergirl as members. They're constantly time-travelling into the 21st century these days, partying with Superman and the JLA and the JSA. They hung out with Batman in Brave & Bold. They were responsible for resurrecting both Kid Flash and Connor Kent Superboy. Mon-El is the star of the Superman comic book these days.Don't have a real tether to what was going on in the DC Universe currently? Dan, what the frak are you talking about?!? If you're paying attention, the Legion has been "tethered" more strongly to the DC Universe than half of your 20th century DC books.
Finally,Dan, to get to the dreaded bottom line, if these are problems, why is DC printing trades from these non-Superboy eras, and fans demanding more? I know, I know, you'll whip out your standard "that's a different division of DC" line, like you always do. But the fact remains--someone at DC sees the sales potential of the Legion despite "large casts" and "untetheredness", while you just opine about the "problems".Dan, the Legion is more popular and better than you think it is. If you're really this ignorant about the history and potential of one of your oldest super teams, you're doing a poor job as Editor. If not, and you're just ladling BS to cover the real reason ("we're waiting for Geoff Johns to be ready"), then be honest with us.
But instead of a thriving, vital Legion, what we have now is what almost precisely fits the vision DiDio described: a back-up feature with just a couple of characters appearing at a time, wandering around the 21st century. Yawn.
"What we are trying to do ...is rebuild a Legion that is a strong powerful set of characters in the DC U again." You know, that sounds exactly how you enthusiastically described the Milestone characters in July of 2008. Do you see why I'm concerned, Dan??
10 comments:
THanks for this, I don't know how many times I've said it.
I would add one more thing. As a Legion fan through the 80s and the first half of the 90s I loved the LSH because it grew up with me, characters grew, changed and evolved.
Here in 2009 we all know the JLA and the X-Men and the rest will forever be reset to their default modes sooner or later and whatever emotional investment we have in their changes will be lost. It's a shame that the Legion are also put through this.
At this point I could care less what happens to the characters, after 3 full on delete al history type resets, why should I care what Cosmic Boy's latest incarnation is?
It's just like I said on the boards. I'd add that every time DC tried to tie Legion more closely to the 20th century, Legion suffered.
I hope you sent this to Dan.
everything here is right.
Absolutely brilliant post! You manage to completely sum up my feelings on this topic and in a much better fashion than I ever could have.
DC's statements at cons and such always strike me as clumsy spin. They're not about sharing information as much as they are attempts to shape opinions. As you deftly point out, all the reasons given here are baloney. That's b/c they're not real reasons, they are, as you say, stand ins for "we're waiting on Johns".
Brilliant and well said, I grew up on the Legion of the 80s and 90s and agree that the Legion was stronger than ever without Superboy and without tethers to the current continuity..I love Adventure but weary of this back-up story business..but I guess the Legion will just have to shove Superboy off the book again and repeat history...
Excellent commentary on the treatment of the Legion. Considering that there are very few "children" that read comics these days it would be nice it the publishers quit treating us like them and give adult, honest answers to questions.
Spot on, sir! I might add a few points:
1) While they say there are very few "children" accessible books these days, the Legion is and always has been a book that is primed for teens and more mature pre-teens, while also imminently enjoyable for readers of all ages. If the themes presented therein don't get too adult, it can still be that way, and by being among the smaller subset of the comic world that does have that appeal, the Legion gets first crack at the ever-renewable audience. (That doesn't mean that we have to have "Lil' Legionaires" -- just a certain sensibility that seemed to work for all of us "back then" as well as now).
2) The large and diverse cast is one of the big attractors, especially for younger readers. Any kid (and let's face it, most adults) can find a member - a hero - that they can identify with, and maybe another one or two (or three) to umm... be extra FOND of. And the complexity of the cast and storylines is especially attractive for kids who like something meaty with which to engage their brains - think Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and even the Twilight books.
So, yeah, Dan doesn't get it - or doesn't want to get it, because it doesn't fit his vision of what DC should be today. What he sees as the Legions weaknesses are its strengths. And so we're not just waiting for G.J. - we're waiting for anyone who DOES get it who can get it past Dan.
Wow. And who would have thought just 23 hours ago when I posted the above that the "anyone" could be... PAUL LEVITZ!
("Right here, direct from the lamp. Right here for your enjoyment, wish fulfillment. Thank you...")
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