Amongst the points we discussed was that in the 5 modern Batman movies, they never recycled a villain (yeah, I know, the next one ends that), yet in the 5 modern Superman flicks, Luthor was the villain in 4 of them (and it was the camp Luthor, too...)
Of course, this spiraled us into a discussion of why that had happened that way, and we reached the conclusion that part of the reason was that Superman had a lame-ass rogues' gallery, especially as compared to Batman. Yeah, you got Luthor. Brainiac's not bad, but apparently they don't want him for a movie (not to mention that he's been essentially MIA in the DC Universe for awhile). Parasite? Well, it would be hard to build a movie around him. Plus, he's purple. Toyman, Prankster, Mr. Mxyzptlk? They exist merely to make Superman look silly...since it's so hard to compete with him on a physical level, they're around to frustrate him mentally. Again, hard to make a good 90 minutes there. Bizarro? Given that so few comic writers can do him justice, I'd be reluctant to let Hollywood take a crack.
Really, not a lot of good, interesting, telegenic villains there, are there? And if I were less charitable, I'd say Superman, for the #1 hero, has a completely terrible set of recurring villains.
Which, of course, directed our discussion to: who has the BEST rogues' gallery? Of course, much of this comes down to both personal taste and familiarity with the heroes. That said, let's throw up a few nominees, shall we?
THE FLASH--specifically Barry Allen and Wally West. Includes Mirror Master, Captain Cold, Captain Boomerang, Heat Wave, Abra Kadabra, Zoom, Grodd, Weather Wizard, Trickster, Pied Piper, Mr. Element, the Turtle (!), etc.Pro:
*It's actually called the Rogues' Gallery. Huge step up in this competition!
*Large. Flash could fight a different Rogue every month and not have to repeat during the year.
*Diverse powers
*Frequent team-ups, various combinations
*More, deeper characterization of the villains than you generally saw in the Silver Age
Con:
*Not that powerful (at least as used): These guys could rule the world if they put a little thought into it...but they're happy to piss away their massive powers robbing banks and jewelry stores??
*Most are one-dimensional in power and use. OK, Heat Wave can make heat. And??
*Lost a lot of respect when they got all weepy after killing Bart Allen. "We didn't mean to kill him?"!!! What the hell do you think you've been trying to do EVERY SINGLE ISSUE FOR THE PAST 50 YEARS, dumb asses, with all those death traps??
BATMAN. Includes the Joker, Two Face, the Penguin, Catwoman, the Riddler, Killer Croc, the Ventriliquist, Ra's Al Ghul, Black Mask, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Bane, KGBeast (greatest villain name ever!!!), Scarecrow, etcPro:
*Large, maybe even larger than Flash's, depending on whom you count.
*Incredibly diverse and interesting (at least among the main ones--let's ignore knock-off losers like Calender Man, Signal Man, or the Globe, shall we?), representing how #$%^'d up Gotham City is.
*Great mix of crazy, cunning, powerful, and strong. A lot more types of stories can be told with this mix than most other heroes.
Con:
*Several are too easy to camp up (I'm looking at you, Joel Schumacher--wasting an opportunity to use Two Face like that is a capital offense!!) and not take seriously. Too much 1960's TV show baggage?
*Too many crazies? Too much Arkham??
SPIDER-MAN. Includes Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Elektro, Chameloen, Sandman, Mysterio, Venom, Jackal, Kingpin, Vulture, Lizard, etc.Pro:
*Vast. Never a shortage of candidates for whom to fight next issue.
*Perhaps the most deeply varied in terms of abilities/styles.
*Adaptable to other heroes--more than any other gallery discussed here, Spidey's villains can (and do) interact more with their native universe--other heroes, etc. More of Spidey's villains have branched off to fight other heroes (Sandman, Mysterio, Kingpin, Rhino...) than anyone else's.
Cons:
*Enough with the Venom already.
*All-in-all, not the brightest bulbs in the pack, are they?
*Given the OMD reboot, who the hell knows what the status of any of these guys is now?
FANTASTIC FOUR. Dr. Doom, Frightful Four, Annihilus, Galactus, Puppet Master, Mad Thinker, Blastaar, Diablo, Mole Man, Psycho Man, Red Ghost, Super-Skrull, etc.Pros:
*The most diverse yet. We've got gods, mad dictators, alien conquerors, mad Russian scientists with monkeys, extra-dimensional conquerors...oh, Stan and Jack, thank you.
*Doom. 'Nuff said.
*True world-class menaces. No bank robbers here.
Cons:
*Sometimes waaaay to one-dimensionally characterized post-Stan and Jack, and not particularly creatively used post-Stan and Jack, either.
*Paste-Pot Pete. 'Nuff said.
*Perhaps a bit stagnant...really, has there been a memorable addition to this group in the past 15 years??
OK, so there you have it. Those are my 4 nominees for the best rogues' gallery. Please vote in the poll on the sidebar. And if you think I've skipped over some heroes villain club unfairly, take me to task in the comments.
I'm afraid the answer is still Batman's. Maybe there's something primal about insanity, maybe Batman and his mythos lend them credibility, maybe they could oftentimes exist in the real world and that makes them scarier (and certainly more cinematic).
ReplyDeleteI went with the FF out of my (probably) irrational love for Galactus, Annihilus, and Doctor Doom.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, there were good stories about these villains post-Kirby/Lee. Most of them were written by John Byrne 20+ years ago of course.
In the late 80s Detective Comics by Wagner, Grant, and Breyfogle, Batman added a new nifty villains to his gallery, the Ventriloquist for one. Batman takes second.
Spidey is a very close third, but his classic villains have been used horribly for the last 20 years. Enough with the Venom already, I totally agree. I've never read a comic with that Carnage character in it and I'm glad I haven't.
I just never read enough 'classic' Flash comics to get a handle on his Rouge's Gallery. I read a few years worth of the early Wally West series and that's about it; at the time Baron and Messner-Loebs were doing weird things with Flash and didn't use the Rouges very often.
I'd have to go with Batman's rogues, too. I think it's the balance of power - for the most part a battle (of wits, brawn, whatever) could go either way, and that's makes it a little more exciting. There's always the possibility Batman might get beat (at least at the moment).
ReplyDeletePlus, y'know - those guys are koo-koo bananas.
What, no love for Green Lantern's enemies - Sinestro (and now the whole damned Sinestro Corps), Star Sapphire, Hector Hammond, the Qwardians (a whole universe against GL!), the Cyborg Superman, The Tattooed Man...
ReplyDeleteAs it was, I went for Flash - his rogues are more human than the others you've mentioned.
Gary--no insult intended to GL. As I blogged list month, I've just never been that much into his book, so I'm not all that familiar with his rogues' gallery.
ReplyDeleteWell, I also thought of GL, mostly because like the Flash, he got a ton of villains right from the start. Of course, most of them had something to do with the color yellow, which really takes the piss out of them.
ReplyDeleteLook at any issue of Who's Who and you'll find Flash and GL villains (and JLofA villains too), whereas other Silver Age stars like Aquaman, Atom and Hawkman get way fewer (and in any given Who's Who, none at all).